Disrespectful SPICY FORUM

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KhoOnxNouxWanxJai

Staff member
You know what I knew I shouldn't have either bother commenting in this thread; because people will always see my comments as taking sides. However, it's not about me. I can guarantee with 100 percent that Thookatha doesn't know anything about Spicy forum up until now. natty and Thookatha use to be very active members long before any of us came along. They were here before sarNworld's data crashed that caused them to redo everything in 2006.

I beg to differ about my defending natty because if you read carefully there is no where in there at all that says, "Your not allowed into spicy forum." But there were specific posts and comments stating, "if you don't like us bashing or saying anything about spicy forum then don't come in here. Well that sounds to me like it's a statement to tell us not to come in here if we aren't liking this thread. I'm not defending natty because if I was I wouldn't be wasting my time to post in this thread. Sometimes silence is the best defense, but I find it unfair that most members tend to say, "spicy" as if every member on their are the same and when you say, "admins" I'm sure most of you know Sunny is a spicy administrator and if Sunny were to pass by and see that sentence how would she feel? Sunny is one of the least fiesty admins of spicy forum.

I said, "I'm not taking sides." because clearly everyone here has made it clear that they side with Kashie, but I refuse to say, "I side with Kashie" because I'm not getting involved with the Kashie against Mai debate that is between the two of them to clear up

BUT, if you want me to say something about that then I will. I'm sorry Kashie, but I will have to say this because apparently some people take me being neutral is not good enough they want me to choose sides.

Ok if every member that got pissed off at spicy came to sarNworld and posted a thread like this then what? We will have an entire forum with threads complaining about how we were mistreated some where else.

I've tried being nice. I've tried backing up both sides of the story, but I'm guessing people want me to pick just one sides of the gate and that one side of the gate has to be sarNworld?


I've stated my opinion about how it was a strong comment what more do you want? For me to say oh thats fucked up that Mai said that? No because I've been taught that if someone offends you then you move on and consider yourself a better person than they are and not take it to the offense, I didn't feel offended initially, but now I'm started to feel that people aren't happy with the fact that I'm close with the girls at spicy. I don't feel obligated to defend anyone at spicy because they can pretty much do that on their own.

Example this thread. One person got someone to feel bad to where they had to come and post this thread and have nearly 4 pages of replies with support, "Oh I never liked spicy." "Spicy forum is really bias"

How much better of a person does it make us if we insult those girls in return? A little online satisfaction because we said something back to someone who bullied us online?

I don't know what more I could say because the more I go on the more damaging it will be to the friendships I have with some of those who have posted and replied in this thread. I am close with a few of the people who have backed Kashie up in this thread and I hope that they don't carry out of this thread meaning you will not feel the need to hate me outside of this thread.

Also, if the people at spicy were so bad then I would have jumped in this thread and bashed Kashie from post one since we're all so bias and mean.

Sigh, this entire incident makes me tired because I honestly don't know what is going on now. I feel bad for ever have replying. I don't think I will be replying to any threads for awhile unless it's a thread I'm normally active in. Where there is a debate next time I'll just not get involved because either way someone will turn my words into something else.
 

mintwix

MMの弁護士。
That's not fair KhoOnxNouxWanxJai. I must admit I've skimmed through your post b/c I'm tired, but if you're saying that people turn your words into something else, and I was the last to comment on your reply, can you at least give me some respect and prove to me that I've turned your comment into something else? Otherwise, you saying it does not make it true, as all claims must be substantiated.

You've written a long post, but I feel like all that can be summed in a few sentences. Somewhere there, you said people are blaming you for being close with the spicy girls. I'm sorry you feel that way. If you've realized, I've not yet bashed Spicy, but I've tried to focus on what was initially the focus of this thread, and it was that comment Kashie quoted. Anyways, tbh, I enjoy debating for sport, but if this is causing a lot of stress btw people who have had long-term bonds, then I can stop, as I do not have a personal investment in it, or even loss.

Hell, I don't know any of yous. But I must say, please understand, to me at least, it's not about spicy v sarnworld. Yes, some people brought it up saying "Sarnworld!!" something like that, but as I've explained, it was not used as an argument. The root was always the nature of that comment. Putting familiarity aside, such comments are not tolerated by the general populace. You've expressed your sympathies, but i've decided to make a long comment because I felt there was a red herring of this "spicy vs sarnworld" accusation thing and we loss track of what initially caused this online drama. And I'm sorry you view part of this drama about being "who you're/I'm siding with". I do not view it as such. I think the fact that you view it as such instigated the "spicy vs sarnworld" accusation. I know I have no right to tell you how to moderate, but if you've simply said "No comparing spicy or sarnword" and not have had shared or invested to much personal feelings into it, trust me, such a simple line would work wonders. I'm also aware that this comment of mine would most likely be taken the wrong way, as it can be considered rude, but please consider it a suggestion that I've seen worked in other forums.
 

KhoOnxNouxWanxJai

Staff member
Didn't exactly know what I was saying; and it sounded very ummm I don't know. But it was nothing bad towards anyone just a bunch of rambling about me being tired lol. Sorry. and some apologies for some of my comments.

Night Night All,


Edit; o_O For the record I didn't close the thread LOL; seriously.
 

Kkrystal

สุภาพบุรุษจุฑาเทพ
P.S

I'm sorry but I was the one that closed the thread. I already asks permission from admin before I closed it.
I think kashie has already vent her frustration and there's no point in starting or letting new frustration arise.
 

Thookatha

sarNie Elites
^^I'm sorry to say this Thooktha, but I find that very hard to believe. I guess I'm just jaded and cynical. :3
And please don't make it look like Kashie was exaggerating when you mentioned that Kashie "was saying all this other stuff about spicy" when she simply only mentioned one thing, with reference to you at least.
i'm lost. what's hard to believe? i really don't know what u are referring to. the me not knowing about spicy thing? Whatever it may be, you’ve obviously already made a judgment about ME in your attempt to “attack ideas”. Nothing in here gives u enough to put my bond with natty into a location. It’s a simple diagnosis that should have been made on my behalf, instead of being twisted against me. I would not lie about something that menial.

And i'm not trying to make kashie look like anything. Do not put words or attempts in my mouth. she really did misunderstand where i was coming from. Plain and simple. u making the "exaggerating" statement only makes my response tainted with negative tendencies that I am surely not making. I was only defending myself. Noticed I said defend, not justify. Pull whatever u want from Wikipedia to argue this.


Also, to answer your question, it makes her look like a reasonable human being who came to the most parsimonious conclusion. She may be wrong and you may be telling the truth, but who gets to verify the truth? Certainly, no one really.

as for this statement here, the use of "reasonable human being" is somewhat of a weak counter. as with everything else, it is up for interpretation...just as much as it often gets misinterpreted. if i don't be careful with how i handle "reasonable human being", i might just end up being accused of calling someone else inhuman. u gotta understand that i, too, had an opinion about kashie's situation with the admin at spicy. how anyone interprets my words (just on that matter) does not bother me one bit. but for someone to reinterpret my character based on "parsimonious conclusions" tells me that that person felt attacked...which is the last thing i want them to feel. it would be so much easier (and way cooler) if we had webcam forums. that way we could all see each other's mannerisms and facial expressions. but we don't, so we must find another way to reconfigure people's impressions a little more correctly. whether we can, want to or need to anything, including justify or verify, is not about seeking approval. it just about making things more clear before you let your imagination run wild in a real situation...especially since we can't truly "see" one another. we are, after all, sharing a playground here (i.e., sw). we want to make friends, not foes. am i gonna need verification on this? hahahaa get it? ok, nvm, bad joke. hahaha


However, don't take my comments seriously, I <3 SW, but SW's not my life. At this moment, I'm just being blunt and stating what I see as it is. I do not care whether you're telling the truth or lying. So don't feel obligated to explain yourself. :3
In terms of this statement, i would have said the same thing. thanks. wait, i take that back...sw IS my life. lol


Anyways, I don't think you made her feel frustrated, offended, want to bite your head off or whatever. People think, people speak, simple as that. But that's just my opinion and all opinions are equal. isn't life great? kehe As of now, I'm actually very mellow and tired. guhhh :3
Ditto on this too.

And your comment on SW being a venting central the first time did not come off as a positive remark. Tis all. If it was simply an indifferent remark, I'm sure Kashie understands.

i hope kashie doesn't interpret it the same way u did.


And I'm sure Kashie is relaxed right now. Right Kashie? <<3

Anyways, I was gonna wait till tomorrow to make a comment about this, but now that Kashie mentions a crucial aspect of the point I wanted to make, well fudge it LMAO :3
also ditto.


Bolded part. QED.

I'm sorry to say this, but you are very biased. Apparently, you've not read Natty's comment carefully and yet have defended her..very poorly I would say.

Why do you and Thookatha have a need to say "I'm not taking sides" if it was not meant for a defensive comment in the future, as it is now revealed you and her seem to be familiar and friendly with Natty and I'm just gonna presume at least feel some kind of obligation to defend your friend? And to add, it is this familiarity thing that has been stressed many times, including this "once you get to know them they're friendly" or "I got used to it" or "They're just like that". (quoting random comments I've read in this thread) I mean seriously, putting emotional attachments, bonds, familiarity aside, can you adequately argue that that supposed "joke" was not intended to harm?
First of all, tina is tina and thookatha is thookatha. the reason why i personally had to say "i'm not taking sides" is really complex, you see. it's because i'm not taking sides. if there was any defense, it was for the fact that some people may not like my interpretation of what that particular admin stated towards kashie. i'm not sure what tina wrote (because I haven’t had time to go through all the responses) but understand that the familiarity people have with one another does not have to be labeled through places. ur argument seems to insinuate that bonds (from certain places) concluded in tainted opinions of the "harmful joke". that's not the case.


And I would also have to say, no, this isn't about Spicy v Sarnworld. Yes, some people have made comments like I <3 Sarnworld, but they're not using that statement to argue that the quote Kashie gave us was harsh, wrong, etc. It's just a mere impulse reaction that humans unconsciously compare the topic at hand with another something that is relevant to the former. Seriously, this Spicy vs Sarnworld claim is just red herring. The real root of it, is a familiarity v. unfamiliar perspective. And apparently, you are familiar with Spicy. Or put it another way, of course you CAN'T be biased with reference tot the forums: spicy and sw. However, you can be biased with reference to the perspectives between those who are familiar with the adm of one forum and not another. If this is not clear, I can clarify later.

Anyways. When I enter debates, people sometimes accuse me of attacking the person, however I would like to point out I'm only attacking ideas, if I'm attacking at all. I have so much reading to do. So I apologize if I missed any points. Wait, wtfudge...I mean. Good nite. :3
overall, you had many well worded "arguments", and u did attack ideas…just as much as you attacked people…perhaps unknowingly. but also understand that ideas can not generate without a person behind it. it's a fine boundary that makes us question and feel certain interpretations....just as u repeatedly concluded that i was familiar with spicy (yet i don't need to justify myself). whether i justify myself or not is not the point. the point is that i don't want kashie to feel as though i was attacking her...at the same time, I had to defend myself against words that began to attack me and not my ideas. no more, no less. and more importantly, i would have been more content if the person i was responding to was kashie right now. but since u prepared such a formal contest on her behalf, i have responded. i just hope my previous words for kashie don’t become tainted with your insight (not that it is not excellent).

ADMINS...MODS...CLOSE THIS IF U WANT.
 

Mook

sarNie Egg
What the heck. So some named Tookada can make a thread and then yell her ass at the others who had commented her back on a closed forum. If everyone came and made a thread and asked very checky to close the thread and not let other people reply (selfishness) how messy would the forum look. Im finding it very disrepectful and u all need to seriously get over it!!
 

KhoOnxNouxWanxJai

Staff member
Umm, ok I'm sorry about this, but you did the same thing that Thookatha did? See this is exactly what I meant when I said if members started taking out their personal vents in a thread. I think the admins should just make a battle forum so people can take it there and fight out without affecting the main forum LOL. I don't think it's unfair at all that the thread was locked because Thookatha herself didn't lock the thread but an Admin or Moderator did.

I'm not trying to talk to you directly, but let this issue end here please. If we all made a thread like this then sarNworld forum will be a war of words between it's members

I hope Khoon Tah and sarN and Mod's don't mind that I close this thread and to be fair and justify my actions Thookatha's thread has also been closed.

Next time something like this happen I think I will report everyone regardless of who you are friends or not, but we can't be going around starting threads just to argue with each other. If you have any personal issue against one another please take it in Pm, but keep it friendly.

-Topic Closed.
 

mintwix

MMの弁護士。
oooh This is just too tempting.

i'm lost. what's hard to believe? i really don't know what u are referring to. the me not knowing about spicy thing? Whatever it may be, you’ve obviously already made a judgment about ME in your attempt to “attack ideas”. Nothing in here gives u enough to put my bond with natty into a location. It’s a simple diagnosis that should have been made on my behalf, instead of being twisted against me. I would not lie about something that menial.


First off, I'm sorry I've offended you and before you go off and say something like: where the hell I came to the conclusion that you're offended, please note, this whole response of yours suggest a defensive tone and a defensive tone is only a natural response from someone who is offended. You are blowing things out of proportion. Seriously, I know you can say the same to me so go ahead.

You're lost. I'm not. What's so hard to believe? Did I just not tell you I was jaded and cynical? I believe I did. And no, I've not made a judgment about you. Pinpoint now where I made that judgment, else your claim remains unsubstantiated. I've put your bond into a location? Sorry, I did not, burden of proof is in your hands. And seriously, "attack ideas"? you're really hung up on those words huh. I'm sorry those words riled you up, but I only stated it IF I was attacking at all, and I've been in far too many debates to not realize such an accusation might come up soon. And apparently, my so-called "attempt" succeeded.


And i'm not trying to make kashie look like anything. Do not put words or attempts in my mouth. she really did misunderstand where i was coming from. Plain and simple. u making the "exaggerating" statement only makes my response tainted with negative tendencies that I am surely not making. I was only defending myself. Noticed I said defend, not justify. Pull whatever u want from Wikipedia to argue this.
I'm sorry, where are you getting this idea that I am pulling things from wikipedia? Dear, you are rude. And note, I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm stating only what I see as you actually making it look like Kashie was exaggerating and you're the cool one who's just joking around telling her she might be offended, wanting to bite your head off, or whatever. Seriously, you can deny that you did not mean to portray her that way, but telling her those things I've just listed downplays her points by literally chainging the issue at hand from the point's she's actually making to HER.



as for this statement here, the use of "reasonable human being" is somewhat of a weak counter. as with everything else, it is up for interpretation...just as much as it often gets misinterpreted. if i don't be careful with how i handle "reasonable human being", i might just end up being accused of calling someone else inhuman. u gotta understand that i, too, had an opinion about kashie's situation with the admin at spicy. how anyone interprets my words (just on that matter) does not bother me one bit. but for someone to reinterpret my character based on "parsimonious conclusions" tells me that that person felt attacked...which is the last thing i want them to feel. it would be so much easier (and way cooler) if we had webcam forums. that way we could all see each other's mannerisms and facial expressions. but we don't, so we must find another way to reconfigure people's impressions a little more correctly. whether we can, want to or need to anything, including justify or verify, is not about seeking approval. it just about making things more clear before you let your imagination run wild in a real situation...especially since we can't truly "see" one another. we are, after all, sharing a playground here (i.e., sw). we want to make friends, not foes. am i gonna need verification on this? hahahaa get it? ok, nvm, bad joke. hahaha
Excuse me, but you asked Kashie: "how does this make you look?" Dear, you are confused. That was not a counterargument, hun (sorry I have a habit at this sometimes), it was literally an answer to your QUESTION. So I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to ignore those jibberish about interpretations or whatever, because, dear, I was not trying to argue about this. Though now I must ask, what answer were you expecting after asking Kashie, "how does this make you look?"



In terms of this statement, i would have said the same thing. thanks. wait, i take that back...sw IS my life. lol
I respect that. :3


Ditto on this too.
Okay. ;)


i hope kashie doesn't interpret it the same way u did.
If she didn't, why did you have a need to clarify this issue about SW being a venting central?


First of all, tina is tina and thookatha is thookatha. the reason why i personally had to say "i'm not taking sides" is really complex, you see. it's because i'm not taking sides. if there was any defense, it was for the fact that some people may not like my interpretation of what that particular admin stated towards kashie. i'm not sure what tina wrote (because I haven’t had time to go through all the responses) but understand that the familiarity people have with one another does not have to be labeled through places. ur argument seems to insinuate that bonds (from certain places) concluded in tainted opinions of the "harmful joke". that's not the case.
LOL. First off, of course Tina is Tina, Thooktha is Thooktha. And I've implied this, but please pinpoint to me where I was insinuating that familiarity people have with one another HAVE to be labeled through places. I feel like you've misinterpreted my comments, if you've interpreted them at all.


overall, you had many well worded "arguments", and u did attack ideas…just as much as you attacked people…perhaps unknowingly. but also understand that ideas can not generate without a person behind it. it's a fine boundary that makes us question and feel certain interpretations....just as u repeatedly concluded that i was familiar with spicy (yet i don't need to justify myself). whether i justify myself or not is not the point. the point is that i don't want kashie to feel as though i was attacking her...at the same time, I had to defend myself against words that began to attack me and not my ideas. no more, no less. and more importantly, i would have been more content if the person i was responding to was kashie right now. but since u prepared such a formal contest on her behalf, i have responded. i just hope my previous words for kashie don’t become tainted with your insight (not that it is not excellent).
Sorry, but I did not ask for your opinions about my "well-worded 'arguments'". hehe. Why are you quoting "arguments"? I'm sorry, reading comprehension tells me you've implied an insult, but of course, I'm just assuming. LULZ

Also, I'm sorry, but "repeatedly" is overstating it. And you're wrong, I'm sorry but you're wrong. You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I'm always assuming you're familiar with spicy. I said once that I find it hard to believe, and then later I've never mentioned it. I've also implied once that you're familiar with Natty, but you cannot say that I've implied the same thing with spicy '"repeatedly".

I almost forgot, good then, I give you the benefit of the doubt since you're re-affirming that you were not attacking Kashie.

And telling you that I do not believe you != attacking you. The only thing that I can presume you seeing me attack you is when I said "please don't make it look like Kashie is exaggerating" and I've explained this ^^up up there somewhere. Otherwise, I'm sorry, when making claims that I'm doing something, i.e commitinga a crime, please provide proof, i.e from my own words.

ADMINS...MODS...CLOSE THIS IF U WANT.
Ditto.
 

Mook

sarNie Egg
Im proving my point in what she did and bcos you closed the other one i've made another one because what you did was very rude and disrespectful. I didnt read all of what you say because it bores me and i find it pointless in what you write tina cos you type a lot of nonsense in allof your posts you post up!
 

lady0fdarkness

Professional Lakorn Watcher
Can we all just get along!! :(

Poor sarN; she's away sick.. I don't think she'll like it when she gets back to see her members turn on eachother like this. Let's just all go watch lakorns and drool all over the pa'aek instead of fight!
 

darvil

sarNie Adult
Well I'll move this hot thread to the serious forum.

You guys can make the threads there if you want.

Can't we all just get along?
 

Jieb_Lover

sarNie OldFart
Can we all just get along!! :(

Poor sarN; she's away sick.. I don't think she'll like it when she gets back to see her members turn on eachother like this. Let's just all go watch lakorns and drool all over the pa'aek instead of fight!
Ditto I agree!:)

& Isn't this thread suppose to be CLOSED? We should just end it right here because the drama needs to stop! SERIOUSLYYY :rolleyes:

Aww alot some of you are all criticizing pTina for her opinions and statement :( Don't think too much about it Girl!

Everyone should respect each others opinions that way we can all get along! *sighs
 

fun

YGfamily
"I like meat and you like vegetable, some likes both: I like spicy and you like sarnworld, some likes both." I was so pulled into the drama that I think I want to start more. :loool:

By the way Kashie is over it. I am not so sure about the rest but why can't we all just laugh over it and party like a rock star! ^_*

Lome we can go and drools on our favorite pra ek regardless of what people think. :D
 

lady0fdarkness

Professional Lakorn Watcher
"I like meat and you like vegetable, some likes both: I like spicy and you like sarnworld, some likes both." I was so pulled into the drama that I think I want to start more. :loool:

By the way Kashie is over it. I am not so sure about the rest but why can't we all just laugh over it and party like a rock star! ^_*

Lome we can go and drools on our favorite pra ek regardless of what people think. :D
yeah Ms. Fun, while this was going on, I was drooling on Pepper in Leh Ratree. I drool no matter what! :D
 

Saifah

bite me x___
i KNOW WE SHOULD STOP AND ALL GET ALONG!!
LAUGH ABOUT iT LEAVE iT IN THE PAST AND PARTY LiKE A ROCKSTAR!! WOOOT!!
 

KhoOnxNouxWanxJai

Staff member
You know what, I don't know what to say because I guess me "closing" a thread that would have definitely ended up with more slurs and etc is considered rude. I'm guessing our other moderators and administrators are rude also because they closed the other threads that were beginning to get out of hand? I'll take that comment to my mind as insignificant. I feel no need to defend myself against anyone especially a child, but I do ask that you respect the administrators and moderators because we all seek approval before we close anything. Sometimes we close threads because we know they are headed for disaster so we have no choice but to close it so that it won't get out of hand. Then we notify the admin and if they see that it's fit to be re-opened then it will be re-opened such as this one. I closed Thookatha's and mintwix thread and they didn't even say anything to me. The point is that when you create a thread the way you did then it gives the right for everyone to do so even yourself. Then there will be the staff who will close the threads because they are a direct inflammation.

Im proving my point in what she did and bcos you closed the other one i've made another one because what you did was very rude and disrespectful. I didnt read all of what you say because it bores me and i find it pointless in what you write tina cos you type a lot of nonsense in allof your posts you post up!
I take that comment personally because it is a little mean. I've never said any of your posts are nonsense so neither should you. Although I disagree with you for things I never directly insult your ideas. I always thought sarNworld was a friendly place, but apparently the thoughts and views of someone who has been here such as myself for a very long time doesn't matter to others. However, I find it very hypocritical that you disliked what Thookatha did, but you did the same thing. For what purpose may I ask? To prove your point? Since when was it ok for someone to prove their point by behaving like such a hypocrite.

My feelings may not matter to you, but I will say I am hurt and you can say get over it and etc as you please, but I hope you feel better about yourself seeing as you manage to insult someone's attempt at thoughtfulness and insight.
 

fun

YGfamily
yeah Ms. Fun, while this was going on, I was drooling on Pepper in Leh Ratree. I drool no matter what! :D
Hehehe I was drooling over Edward after seeing Saifai siggy!!! :D
I guess we will just have to add some humor in here. Maybe it will help calm down the atmosphere in here. B)
 

cutefuzzy

maplestory addict xD
Im proving my point in what she did and bcos you closed the other one i've made another one because what you did was very rude and disrespectful. I didnt read all of what you say because it bores me and i find it pointless in what you write tina cos you type a lot of nonsense in allof your posts you post up!
Seriously Mook, this is what I call a rude comment. You can debate or argue on any points. Regardless. But you shouldn't target Tina alone in this matter. She has the right like every member to voice out her opinion in this matter. What you're doing on the other hand was bashing on her alone and the worse part you're totally out of the topic; her closing your topic? She's a mod so she got the right to close/open any thread if she think it is supposed to be that way.

Heck, that is why she's the mod and you're not.

If you think whatever she wrote was a nonsense, then .. thats your opinion. I read through her posts and I think she was just speaking out her mind. But, i have to re-state here that I do not agree with her opinion as well but you don't see me getting too emotional and just bashing people for the sake of it.

FYI, I don't know Tina that well at all. So, I'm not doing this because I'm her friend or whatever. It's because I think your comment was wrong. Plain wrong.

Well I'll move this hot thread to the serious forum.

You guys can make the threads there if you want.

Can't we all just get along?
I'm glad you moved the topic here. thanks.


---


Actually, this is just my personal opinion. I'm glad that this thread was opened actually. It's not that I'm happy to see members fight among themselves but, at least, I can see two sides of the story. As in, last time I often hear from other members that spicy is this n that, but I never tried getting along with the members. Maybe, as some members had stated .. we need to get to know them and we shouldn't just target the whole spicy forum.

I don't need to state my stand cos I don't care whatever people say about me anyways.

But people, if you want to argue .. do it properly. Not just bashing on people as you please.


Just my 2 cents on the matter, I'm sorry if I offended anyone in any way.
 

Jieb_Lover

sarNie OldFart
Hehehe I was drooling over Edward after seeing Saifai siggy!!! :D
I guess we will just have to add some humor in here. Maybe it will help calm down the atmosphere in here. B)
loooo :lol: you girls are funny:)

anyways, i'm so upset with this thread. so many negative thoughts and comments and bashing on each other :(

NEEDS TO STOPPP for the sake of this forum!!
 
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